Thanks for the input Crosi, while I'd say you have listed some fantastic counters to all kiters certainly in plexes I'd also say that perhaps I have not made my point clearly.

Why would I fly any of them when I could fly a garmur? In a garmur I can now engage a massive range of ships, or just leave. The ships you just listed are much more limited. I also don't want this to degenerate into solely an anti garmur post. I am very specifically gathering it, the orthrus and the t3 dessies into one pile. It's just too easy to get kills and run from people you don't like.

IIRC Crosi, you fly your Garmurs linked and HG snaked, those things have no counters assuming an equal level of pilot skill. The stuff you listed has a chance of killing Garmurs IF they mess up, and that's not really an argument since X can always kill Y if Y messes bad enough up regardless of the ship.

8km/s cold Garmurs are basically immune to almost everything that can hit it. I remember trying to kill a Garmur in an LML Talwar only to find my missiles would peter out before they hit the Garmur and even then, if I did manage to hit him he could just pull range and warp out since he'd be fighting at 60km where nothing bar another Garmur/Orthrus could point him. Drones don't hit, rail corms you can just pull range and leave, faster MWD ships don't have a hope of catching you with 20km defensive scram, sentinel only neuts to 30km and is far slower, Hyena only webs to 40 and even if you get webbed, you can just warp out before he gets the point on etc etc

Garmurs are broken mostly because of how powerful offgrid links are but even then, the ship design allows you to scale ridiculously well with links that it's just stupid.

Crosi is the Garmur pilot of my heart

crosi is... well lets just say his skin is very pale and one of his arms is bigger than the other...

Wrong thread, i think you were looking for the 'projecting our insecurities on others' thread

nah the garmur is just poorly designed.

ways to maybe fix it:
1. get rid of 1 mid
2. nerf its cap so it cant perma run all its mids

PS crosi try alternating your crank arm so you dont look so silly

crosi every time you respond to me its either a pathetic straw man, or you say im mad. just quiet down

crosi talking to you always feels like talking to a child

heres the difference between my post and your post

me:

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crosi is a nerd (hilarious comment completely unrelated to the bulk of my post meant solely for my own amusement)

criticism of garmur which is related to the thread (this is the main point of my post)

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crosi:

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wow you are mad lol so hostile (this is you completely missing the point of my post while simultaneously trying to sound like an intellectual but in reality you just come off as stupid)

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as for my rifter example, once again you completely miss the point

i made a hypothetical situation to analogize the creation of the garmur/t3 dessies to the HYPOTHETICAL creation of a super-rifter

this has NOTHING to do with how the rifter was eventually "balanced"

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edit: however if you'd like we can compare and contrast the ways in which these two situations were handled

rifter is overpowered: buff all the other ships in its class (ok sounds good)

kiting ship supremacy: lets create even stronger kiting ships (funny because its so ********)

ive killed countless garmurs by being the initial point/scram with a ceptor, which then was followed with a blob

doesnt mean the ship is balanced

if you even bothered to read any of the posts you respond to you would see that my contention is not that garmurs are invincible;
my contention is that garmurs (and orthrus and t3 dessies for that matter) are conceptually flawed. anti-fun. blob-encouraging. damaging to the solo/smallgang meta.

they shouldnt exist. they take a problem (the kiting supremacy) and exacerbate it.

All else being equal, nothing, bar cruisers and up, will solo a linked garmur.

This is a little stifled with no example.

He doesn't use a Loki all the time, sometimes it's a Proteus. Jeez get your facts straight.

I hate linked garmurs... linked anything as much as the next guy.

But you sound like crosi is your secret crush and its an unrequited love.

So much win in this statment, if people are willing to risk the isk and have the SP, who are we to bad mouth them? Heaven forbid a whole Corp does it though, cause then it's easy mode..... Complimant and tongue in cheek in the same post. I like.

Math is hard.

Those two derptrons have about 4k ehp each, one if not both will be dead by the time they get close enough to think they had a chance. Lest we mention the defensive scram for the survivor.

You are correct though, Crosi is one of the best pilots around, I'm not a fan of links but at least he uses them 'right,' taking on odds where any other setup would die.

This doesn't have to be so personal. Individuals aside, the Garmur has probably the least number of counters out there. Most other frigates with boosts, Incursus/other brawlers, or LML frigate/slicer, still have plenty of hard counters out there, even if the opponent doesn't have his own boosts. Cookie Cutter Slasher fits will trash a linked brawler, and even with boosts the traditional kiting ships out there have their weaknesses from weapons range to overall speed. I could slap a RF long point and boosts on a Slicer, but I'd have to lose my pulse lasers, I could do the same to a condor but I'm still limited to my missile range (42km), which is putting you at least within the margin of error of being ****** with by someone competent.

With the Garmur, you could fit a specific hard counter, with the same boosts/implants, and still only have a 1/2 chance of making it out alive let alone killing the Garmur. The entire t1 frigate line is no good, all are significantly slower and lack the EHP to survive chasing down a Garmur and getting scram, the defensive scram again, a serious final hurdle.

Other faction/pirate frigates and EAFs, I'd give it a shot in a structure tanked blaster Comet. I'm still slower by 2k m/s and again if the Garmur has a defensive scram, chances are not great. Now a Dram gets close, still slower all else being equal and again, the defensive scram is rough. You could fit an overdrive and drop a gyrostab, leaving you with the same dps as a Garmur, but with the Garmur having 70km of lead time to shoot you in the face, your small AAR only runs 40 seconds without a cap booster as well. You could medium shield extend it but you only get 2.8k more ehp than the Garmur just running a DCU, bout 25 seconds worth of Garmur shooting you in the face. Again, presuming the Garmur is running away that 25 seconds won't cover the time it takes you to catch him, which is never because again, you're still slower.

Apparently Hyena and Sentinel were bandied about but I'm going to assume those were troll suggestions. A hyena could web out to 68km, might take him a while to kill you with his 25 dps though. Sentinel, 30km neuts versus a ship almost twice as quick as you orbiting at 60km...

Just seems too dominant to me, bonuses in point/weapon range and inherent strong stats that scale amazingly well with boosts, OP is built into the ships DNA. Hands down best in class by a massive margin.

crosi's garmur is easy to beat because he's a coward who runs double sebo

the instant you land on grid with a fast ship he's gonna warp or die because his fit is purely for KM whoring so he can have a nice killboard while being a rubbish pilot

thats also why you should take crosi's argument that the garmur can be killed by an atron or a dramiel with a grain of salt. because he doesnt fit the thing that makes the garmur truly op: the long range defensive scram

That doesn't really help the argument that they are not OP, as 111,134 ships have been destroyed by Garmurs. Do the math and you find that 7500 is a rather low loss rate compared to the damage it has done.

Not saying I'm against the Garmur, but those stats are not a good comparison to show the ship is not OP.

The ship is expensive, and to be flown properly it has to have an expensive fit plus expensive implants. Yet, it can be killed by ships in large groups that are very inexpensive.

crosi all your so-called "solo" kills are snaked/linked in the most op frigate in the game against caldari militia pilots who we both know cannot even tie their own shoes much less pvp

the fact that a frigate can put 200dps out to a 60k point while doing 12kms kinda sounds like an april fools joke. but no. its real.

I think the point range bonus shouldn't apply to scrams, and the speed and agility needs nerfed a bit so we have more hard counters. That's all, nothing too crazy because all pirate frigs are good. The worm probably needs the drone dps reduced a bit but again nothing too crazy. Please don't break them before I get to fly one with proper skills.

crosi's spew should be disregarded because the only thing hes concerned with is his own entertainment. everything he says is self serving.

nerfing the scram bonus isnt that great of a nerf imo

base speed needs to be reduced.
and
capacitor needs to be nuked, or a mid needs to be nuked

also we need to dicuss the t3 dessies.

as i already said they are pretty much a joke as the 10mn coercer and 10mn thrasher were already incredibly strong. the t3 dessies are just even stronger versions of them.

crosi is so full of himself he actually thinks all discussions about ship balance are because of him

crosi you are bad

you are not even in gal mils top 20 solo killers

i did no such thing

in fact i was a far better maulus pilot than you

i may have used the same fit as you. but your fit was in no way amazing or requiring outside-the-box thinking

fitting ships in eve is not difficult

pretty much the only case where a fit really impressed me was quake's thrasher. and yes i shamelessly copied it

and yes it is lame to only fly the same risk-averse ship over and over and over and nothing else

there are a few key differences between you and quake

1. he used the thrasher to fight 1v2 1v3 etc :versus: you are a puss

2. he is a skilled pilot :versus: you use snaked/linked kiting ships, hit orbit and then go afk

3. brawling with a thrasher :versus: you are a snaked/linked kiting puss

4. he fights other good pvpers :versus: you warp the instant you see anyone scary

5. anyone who is interested in eve pvp knows quake :versus: nobody knows or cares about you except to use you as an example of a puss like i do

every single one of my game design criticisms is directed at ccp.

please dont confuse this with my criticisms of you as a pilot, which are directed at you

keep putting words in my mouth you sad little man

im not going to just let you spew your filth without responding, if that gives the illusion that im obsessed with you then thats just the way it has to be. by that logic you are equally obsessed with me.

Have you actually tried fitting a 10mn AB to a t3d in Mosaic? To do so you really have to gimp your fit.